Barnes
& Noble interview—THE BROKEN LAND
Hello,
Debbie!
Thanks
for the invitation to join you today.
Over the years we’ve had great support from Barnes & Noble and want
to express our appreciation to you and your great associates for your efforts
on behalf of readers and book-lovers everywhere.
How is it writing with
your spouse?
Incredibly, after thirty years and
around two hundred collaborations, both in the form of books and professional
articles, we’re still married! Mostly because we have a huge amount of trust in the other’s
talent. In a real sense we get to live in each other’s heads. It’s a rare privilege, not to mention a
lot of fun.
Our
goal is to craft a story so seamlessly that the reader falls into that universe
and doesn’t want to come out. So if one of us has a problem with something the other
has written, it gets rewritten. No ego.
No stamping around muttering oaths (okay, well, on occasion). We both feel that if one of us is
concerned about a passage, one of our readers will be, too, and it needs to be
fixed. For more details on the
everyday experience of co-authoring, however, we invite all of your readers to
investigate Kathleen’s blog entry last month on our website at gear-gear.com,
entitled “The joys of co-authoring…or not.”
The
fact is that we don’t argue much about the writing craft—we save that for the
archaeological data.
Interpreting
what is occasionally scanty scientific information can get a little
bloody. For each culture that
thrived in North America over the last 15,000 years, there are at least five or
six theories that attempt to interpret the information. We have to sift through and analyze
each one. We’re trying to provide our readers with the best possible
reconstruction of what might have happened in the past. When we’ve narrowed the theoretical
approaches down to what we think are the best two theories that explain what we
see in the archaeological record, then we have to test them. We do this by applying each theory in a
fictional context to see if it works when “real” people have to live it. The
theory-testing can get intense. Brows
lower, fangs drip, and the “Arkbark” gets thick. Arkbark is a term used by archaeologists to refer to the arcane
jargon of field archaeologists. In
short, the verbal knives can get sharp. Mike will gladly show you his scars.
In
THE BROKEN LAND, and all four books in the PEOPLE OF THE LONGHOUSE quartet, we
want New York, New England, and Ontario to be more real to the reader than this
world.
Tell us about the
PEOPLE OF THE LONGHOUSE series.
PEOPLE OF THE LONGHOUSE, THE DAWN
COUNTRY, THE BROKEN LAND, and THE BLACK SUN (Oct. 2012), chronicle a little
known peace movement in fifteenth century North America that literally changed
the world. The Peacemaker,
Dekanawida, along with his friend Hiyawento, and a very powerful clan matron
named Jigonsaseh, brought five warring nations together to create the League of
the Iroquois. Why is that important? Because both
American democracy and Marxist communism were intrinsically influenced by the
League of the Iroquois. One
person, one vote? Referendum and
recall? All came from the Iroquois, and heavily influenced people
like Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin. In fact, the idea of a “united”
states was suggested by an Iroquoian chief named Canassatego in 1744 when the
League of the Iroquois met with American colonists at Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
After hearing from the Colonial Commissioners about American difficulties with
the British Crown, Canassatego told the commissioners that if they were wise
the independent states would immediately establish a union like that of the
Iroquois League. In 1775, on the
eve of the Revolution, the Colonial Commissioners thanked the Iroquois for their
sage advice, saying, “Brothers, our forefathers rejoiced to hear Canassatego
speak these words. They sank deep
into our hearts. …We thank the
great God that we are all united; that we have a strong confederacy, composed
of twelve provinces…”
In
the end, descriptions of the New World’s native peoples and philosophies would
topple the “divine right of kings” hierarchy, precipitating the Protestant
revolt, the Enlightenment, and revolutionizing European thought. Meanwhile, here, our founders were soaking up native ideas
about freedom, independence, individual rights, and pure democracy. It is out of that rich aboriginal
tradition that the political ideals of what would become known as the Free
World emerged. While the Creek
Confederacy and the Cherokee Alliance had an impact, the most influential was
the League of the Iroquois. From
1600 to the 1850s they were literally the third wheel of American politics. What
makes American democracy so unique is that it’s a melding of Iroquois ideas and
English common law.
And
communism? In 1851 an early ethnographer
named Lewis Henry Morgan published a book called League of the Ho-de-no-sau-nee, or Iroquois. Morgan talked about how the Iroquois shared
resources, clarifying that no one went hungry, and no one amassed wealth. This in turn was read by a young Karl
Marx, and coupled with his economic theory, became one of the pillars of his
classic work, Das Kapital.
Given
the staggering worldwide influence of the League of the Iroquois, we naturally
wanted to write the story of how the League came about. In essence, the PEOPLE OF THE LONGHOUSE
series is a four-book miniseries within a series. And, after all, the number
four is sacred to much of Native American storytelling. We knew it would be complex because
there is a huge body of oral history, archaeological information, and American
historical resources to paw through.
The archaeological information is daunting enough, but the oral history
of the Peacemaker changes through time, as well as between the Iroquois nations
themselves, which required piecing the story elements together to create a
coherent whole.
Without
Dekanawida’s vision that five warring nations could come together to create a
Peace Alliance, and Hiyawento and Jigonsaseh’s faith in that vision…there would
have been no United States, no striving for democracy and freedom for all
peoples regardless of race, religion, or country of origin, no Arab
Spring.
We
think everyone who cherishes democracy, who believes in inalienable human
rights and freedom for all, should know where those ideals came from.
How does it feel to
have published over fifty novels?
We never would have guessed. In 1985 when Mike sold his archaeological
company and Kathleen left her job as an archaeologist for the federal
government to go write in a Colorado cabin, it was a “go for it” dream. The cabin had a two-holer outhouse up
the mountain, no running water, 520 square feet, and two wood stoves for heat
and cooking. The majority of our
friends and family told us we were lunatics to give up good careers. But dreams are like that. They won’t let you go. After two years, our savings account
was almost non-existent. Our good
friends Bill and Debbie at Abajo Archaeology in Utah hired us to work on a
project in the winter of 1987 that gave us enough income for a few more months
of writing. But on March 1st
of 1988 we had $187.43 in the bank.
Things were looking a bit dim.
Then, on March 10th, we sold four books to two different
publishers, Tor Books and DAW Books.
The Great Mystery has an odd sense of humor…
Publishing
over fifty novels certainly wasn’t a goal in the beginning. The problem with
being archaeologists is that someone is always excavating something brand new
and absolutely fascinating. It’s
an exciting time to be involved with anthropology. Every conference and journal
brings a new discovery. The simple answer is that one book just led to the
next, and with each novel finished, three or four other new discoveries were
floating out there, waiting to be written about. As odd as this might sound, we got so caught up in the writing,
the ideas, and the data, that we never paid attention to the book count. When requests from fans finally forced us
to give them a complete list for the gear-gear.com website, we were
stunned. Let’s hope no one ever
forces us to total up all the articles we’ve written on buffalo history and
conservation!
Did you learn anything
about humanity on your 50th book celebratory tour of Mediterranean
archaeology?
We could probably spin
an entire encyclopedia from our month in the Mediterranean. Each day was filled
with sensory overload. We were both trained in classical archaeology and ancient
history, as well as comparative religions and Western Civilization, yet we
still filled up three notebooks and two cameras.
Just
take Tunisia: We prowled around Carthage, looked at the harbor, investigated
Punic tombs, pottery, and artifacts, spent time in the Roman ruins, blew our
minds in the Tunis museum gawking at the finest collection of Roman mosaics in
the world, walked through the American WWII cemetery with tears in our eyes,
and delighted ourselves in the local souk, the marketplace. All that in the shadow of the revolution
which sparked the Arab Spring. Believe us, it’s nothing like the evening news portrays. We
were nervous right up to the instant we set foot in Tunis and spied two young
women. One was dressed
traditionally, with only her eyes visible, and she was walking with her tanned
teenage friend in a tee-shirt, cutoffs, and flip flops. No one cared. Free market capitalism
was springing up everywhere and Tunisians were pleading with us to tell the
world that Tunisia is open for business.
They need tourists and they have so many sites to see. Book your flight now and go! Tunisians are wonderful people.
The
biggest single thing, if we had to pick, would be the contrasts we made walking
through places like Ephesus and Rome, and comparing them to equivalent archaeological
sites in North America. Trust us, in the 14th century you’d rather
be living in Moundville, Alabama, than in downtown Rome. At 1500 BC, you’d
rather be living in Poverty Point, Louisiana, than Athens, Greece. The sanitation was better, the people
were healthier, and there were no European rats in North America to carry the
black plague. That’s not to say
that North America was a peaceful paradise, it wasn’t. If you’ve read our books, you know
that. No matter the time or place,
people are just people.
Tell you about living
on a bison ranch?
As we sit writing this, we’re looking out at the snow-covered
meadow where fifteen buffalo are grazing in grass up to their bellies. The animals are just marvelous. They have a magical presence. In many interviews people have heard us
say, “When you look into the eyes of a buffalo you see God looking back,” and
it’s true. We’ve been raising
bison for eighteen years now, and are fairly certain they think they are
raising us. Contrary to popular
belief, they’re very intelligent, at least as smart as a very smart dog or
mule. They are wild animals;
buffalo always put you in your proper place--at the bottom of the dominance
hierarchy. You just have to admire them for that.
We’re
much downsized from our maximum of 250-300 bison, but they are such a part of
our lives we can’t imagine being without them. We’re just back from the Western
Bison Association winter show and sale which is held in Ogden, Utah. We picked up a bull and a yearling
heifer from a New Mexico bison rancher and good friend, John Painter. Because of the terrible drought in New
Mexico, we’re taking care of Tiberius and Lady Bug. We have plenty of good grass
to keep them happy and healthy.
Currently
the national market for bison products is under-served by about 20%, so prices
on meat and hides are way up. Most
of this is driven by the knowledgeable consumer who doesn’t want each forkful
to contain growth hormones, antibiotics, or genetically modified DNA. Bison remains a healthy alternative to
feedlot beef. With 67% fewer
calories, twice the iron, and less cholesterol than skinless chicken, buffalo
is still pure and clean. Our
biggest problem now is finding new buffalo ranchers to expand the industry as
older ones retire. We want more
buffalo in the world.
Living
every day with buffalo keeps us tethered to reality. For most Americans, life
is lived in a technological urban bubble with a cozy safety net no more than a
text message away. Here at Red Canyon Ranch we don’t have phone service (not
even cellular or satellite), but
we do have mountain lions, wolves, bears, rattlesnakes, violent weather, and seven
miles of dirt road that can be, well, a challenge, especially when its muddy or
icy. For the most part, we raise what we eat, animals as well as plants.
You have one YA book,
are your others age specific?
Only one of our books is age-specific, CHILDREN
OF THE DAWNLAND; it was written specifically for young readers. We’ve found that younger audiences are
desperate to read about other times and cultures. They like to compare their lives with those of children who
experienced a radically different environment. In the case of CHILDREN OF THE DAWNLAND that means living at
the end of the last Ice Age, 13,000 years ago. For us, as archaeologists, just being
able to educate young readers that there were people in North America thirteen
thousand years before Europeans arrived is a major victory.
Your genre seems to be
mostly historical fiction, along with your lessons in American culture do they
include some fantasy as well?
Well, there’s a good
question. Depends on what you mean
by fantasy. We wrote PEOPLE OF THE SEA specifically as a fantasy novel.
Many of our readers, as well, think that the Native American mystical beliefs
in our books give the stories a fantasy “feel.” But here’s a question we have often pondered: If we set
marketing aside, what is “fantasy?”
The
religious aspects of our novels come from the comparative study of Native
American religions. Though religious
cosmology is vastly different from region to region, shamanism, animism,
totems, and visions of other worlds are important parts of the native religious
experience. So, if we’re writing
about a Chickasaw Hopaye, or priest, who after four days of fasting, sweating,
and purifying his body, is visited by a Piasa—a part panther, part bird, part
snake supernatural creature—is it fantasy? What if a Christian prays on his knees for four days and
fasts, and is visited by the Virgin Mary?
Our
job as anthropologists and archaeologists is to recreate prehistoric and
historic cultures as closely as we can. We’ll be wrong about a lot of things,
of course. The record is fragmentary, and we accept that as time proceeds, many
of the books will become obsolete because of new information. But we have to start somewhere. As for
Michael, the first time he stood in the opening of a Shoshoni Sundance Lodge,
he could feel Power settling in the fork of the central pole. Was it fantasy or
real? Standing in the Church of
the Nativity in Bethlehem was one of the most sacred experiences in Kathleen’s
life. She says she felt God
everywhere. Fantasy?
That
said, one day we’d like to write a full-blown Native American fantasy. Marvelous
creatures and beings fill their sacred stories. There are tie-snakes, horned serpents, Eagle Man, Tailed Man,
Cannibal Turkey, Stone Man, Corn Woman, Buffalo Above, Spider Woman, and so
many other heroes. To us they are far more interesting than trolls, elves,
fairies, ogres, dragons, and vampires.
Will you have any
B&N signings at the release of THE BROKEN LAND.
At 2:00 P.M. on
January 28, 2012, we will be giving a lecture on the Iroquois Peace League at
the Billings, Montana, Barnes and Noble on 24th street. Of course, we’ll be signing copies of
THE BROKEN LAND, too. Please join
us!
Thank
you, Debbie. You asked fun
questions. We hope your readers
enjoy our answers.
Best
Wishes for a Joyous 2012.
W.
Michael Gear and Kathleen O’Neal Gear
And my thanks to Both of your for your generosity in taking the time to answer some questions.
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